Oh wow. This is getting crazy when publications like New York Times and USA Today take interest. EDIT- It is now on NBC’s site, as well as Yahoo.
USA Today releases this article:
Are Chinese gymnasts too young for Olympics?
Posted 7h 17m ago | Comment | Recommend E-mail | Save | Print | Subscribe to stories like this
BEIJING (AP) — Two female Chinese gymnasts, including a gold-medal favorite, might be too young to participate in the upcoming Beijing Olympics.Several online records and reports show He Kexin, the host nation’s top competitor on uneven bars, and Jiang Yuyuan might not yet be 16, the minimum age for Olympic eligibility. Both were chosen for China’s team last week.
On the Web site of the Chengdu Sports Bureau – Chengdu is the capital of Sichuan province in southwest China – a file dated January 2006 shows He Kexin as being born Jan. 1, 1994.
Most recently, a May 23 story in the China Daily newspaper, the official English-language paper of the Chinese government, had He’s age as 14.
The newspaper story begins: “The 14-year old newcomer to the national team, who was recruited last year, has raised a lot of eyebrows recently after she broke two world records on the uneven bars in as many months.”
The New York Times raised questions about the athletes’ ages in a story Saturday. And Chinese officials provided the newspaper with copies of passports indicating both gymnasts are 16.
But in a speech on Nov. 3, 2007, in the central city of Wuhan, Liu Peng, director of general administration of sport for China, said: “The 13-year-old uneven-bar gymnast He Kexin, who defeated national team athlete Yang Yilin – she just won the bronze medal in the world championships – has demonstrated her ability.”
To be eligible for the Cities Games where Liu made his remarks, Chinese documents show athletes must be over 13, but under 15.
The New York Times reported International Gymnastics Federation officials acknowledged questions about He’s age had been raised and asked the Chinese for clarification in May.
“We heard these rumors, and we immediately wrote to the Chinese gymnastics federation,” Andre Gueisbuhler, the secretary general of the international federation, told the newspaper. “They immediately sent a copy of the passport, showing the age, and everything is OK. That’s all we can check.
“As long as we have no official complaint, there is no reason to act, if we get a passport that obviously is in order.”
The American and Chinese women are expected to battle for the team gold medal when the Beijing Games begin Aug. 8.
He is one of the few athletes in the world who has scored over a 17 under the new scoring system. Using He and Yang Yilin, who also has scored a 17 on bars, the Chinese hope to use the uneven bars to build up a big advantage in the team competition.
The Americans, who won the 2007 world championships team title, have only one gymnast, Nastia Liukin, who’s gotten a 17 on bars.
If gymnasts He, a gold-medal favorite, and Jiang are under age, it would be yet another black eye for China in the buildup to the games.
In June, Chinese swimmer Ouyang Kunpeng and coach Feng Shangbao were permanently banned from the sport after Ouyang tested positive for anabolic steroids. Wrestler Luo Meng and his coach also were barred for life for a doping violation by the athlete.
The Chinese government is working feverishly to present a positive image of an open, friendly, progressive nation. But visa restrictions, toxic air pollution, freedom of the press issues and a problem-filled torch relay have presented a far different image to the world.
The Associated Press
Gymnastics and Stuff 
The article doesn’t prove anything. Prove it ior shut up about it already. Not you.lol Just everyone in general.
This is coming across as pure bitter American whining. It really sucks when we get accused of being this and it’s true.
zzzzz-
What interests me in this age-falsification debate is that it shocks me. I once wrote a paper on the philosophy of sports in China. There is no translation for the term “fair play” in their language. Sports represent the ultimate balance of the mind and body. And supposedly, cheating and even boasting is deemed immoral.
My concern with the issue lies with this being the scandal of the Olympics. And I don’t want that.
But you raise an interesting point….I wonder what other countries are bitching about this?
I agree with zzzzz. I am afraid that what the Olympics turn into is just blind pride and dogmatism for your country, at the expense of being immature, bitter, and righteous. This is not what the Olympics are about. Congratulations, NYT, you have proven yourselves to be just as pathetic as 50% of the American population.
Actually USA Gymnastics said they would not file an official complaint. So how exactly are the Americans whining? All they’re trying to say is that if she is too young, that’s cheating and cheating is wrong. It has also been said that other countries are afraid to file complaints about this because they fear that they wouldn’t be judged fairly in competition at the Games.
becky-actually is doesn’t not say she is too young. what is says is there have been some published reports that contradict her age. therefore, you assumption that she is too young=cheating=wrong is based on nothing more than speculation. regarding whether countries are afraid to make the accusation, well, that’s there problem. they should be concerned with making accusations without just proof. her passport and documentation says she’s 16 and to the olympic committee, that’s enough proof and it should be for all you whining babies. if China was in contention for team gold and other event gold medals, no one would be whining. they’ve had “young” looking competitors in the past but no one complained then. why…b/c they were never really a direct threat to team usa. now when usa has a great shot at team gold, all the whiners come out and cry foul. worry about your own athletes and steriods abuse…now there’s real cheating!
You don’t think that the Chinese government can falsify passports and make them the correct age for the Olympics so they can try and guarentee themelves the medal? It has come out that they falsified the age of a diver so they could compete in world’s last year. The diver is old enough to compete in the Olympics now, but was too young for worlds. Also in 2000 they lied about the age of one of their gymnasts. She was only 14 when she competed in Sydney and even admitted it herself. When the Chinese government is taking down sites and message boards that contain info with He’s real age on it, it means they have something to hide. It is in my opinion and along with many others, that she is not old enough by FIG’s regulations to compete in the Olympics. Therefore that is cheating. They are only using her to get the 17 score on bars to try and make sure they win the gold. I don’t care if she competes in the Olympics, but it should be in 2012 when should would atleast be over the proper age to compete. Also USA Gymnastics isn’t whining about it, they have already said they aren’t going to make an official complaint, so obviously they don’t care and aren’t whining about it. Also, my favorite athletes aren’t dopers. And I agree, doping is also cheating. Personally I think the US can still beat China, we have a better this year as well, better than the one that beat China at last year’s worlds.
Becky: I believe that the American “whining” is referring to general American culture, not USA Gymnastics. Nonetheless Steve Penny, President of USA Gymnastics, said something to the extent of “Bring em on. We’ll beat them,” which smacks pretty obviously of USA Gymnastics’ immaturity and haughtiness. And personally, I think the Chinese should beat the US, because they have the most difficult, beautiful, and technically precise routines in the world. I have always found most American gymnasts to have extremely aesthetically difficult-to-watch gymnastics. Nastia Liukin and Ivana Hong are exceptions to this rule. Godspeed.
becky- you seemed to have missed the point again. This is not the Salem Witch trials where you can just start accusing people and think b/c you have some people that agree with you, it makes it a fact. You as an American should understand the basic premise of innocent until proven guilty. Where is this proof and please don’t cite those news articles. For every one you have i’m sure there are plenty of others that say 16. New York Times? Weren’t they involved in a huge scandal years ago about not checking facts. Their gov’t can change passports. I suppose they can but seriously you are grasping at straws when you say that. ANY gov’t, including the US could do that too. Shawn Johnson looks pretty young…maybe someone falsified her birthcerticate? Next thing you and people of your ilk are going to scream about is “oh the govt fixed the scores so China would win.” Alicia Sacramone looks kind of chunky. I bet she is on steroids which gives her extra strength. Well, Marion Jones used steroids and she’s American so I bet Alicia does too. Faulty logic, huh? This is exactly your way of thinking. Enough with all this “the chinese gov’t crap”. Sure, they’re not perfect but neither is yours! Look at your own gov’t and PROVEN scandals before you start criticizing others with unsubstantiated claims. The double standard you people have is mindnumbing. If you think USA can still beat China, then you will have nothing to complain about, do you?
M-The people of China were even posting on message boards that He was only 14. If the people of that country believe she is only that age, and that fact that the Chinese government have in the past changed ages to make others eligible to compete, is enough to make people question whether she is truly 16 or not. China doesn’t have birth certificates, so it’s a little harder to prove the age of someone in China vs. the US. Also, you’re example about Alicia was somewhat idiotic. Gymnasts get tested before, throughout, and after competitions, so if she was doping she would’ve been caught by now. I see what you were trying to say, but it was a bad example.
You have misunderstood me as well, all I was trying to say is the actions that the Chinese government have taken over this issue, show signs of guilt. Taking down websites and message boards with their own citizens saying that He is only 14, and trying to hide those facts from the rest of the world. If Chinese ctiizns think she is only 14, why shouln’t everyone else? Bela Karoyli has said it’s not hard for those types of governments to change documents. I’m sure Romania might have done it a time or 2. FIG has made their decision, and said based off the passport they can do nothing. Someone would have to provide proof, and the only one’s with the proof would be the Chinese government. If she really is 14, China should abide by the rules set down by FIG in 1997. It’s that simple, if they are lying about her age, they are only using her as a bars specialist to get a 17 score on bars to build an advantage over the US. Bars being the US’s weakest event. Nastia and Chelsea being the best we’ve got and Nastia is the only one scoring over 17.
I don’t like it when athletes don’t play fair. As a future Olympic hopeful in swimming, I would never dope. I think that sacrifice and hard work, are should be what determines how good you are, not drugs. I think to prove you are the best individual or team you shouldn’t cheat by using performance enhancing drugs or potentially lying about athletes ages just so you can win. Also, I never said any country’s goverment is perfect, you are reading into what I typing too much and making assumptions on what I am trying to say.
The only thing that I am truly trying to say is that if He is only 14 she shouldn’t compete in this Olympics. If China is lying about it, it’s unfair to other countries who are playing fair and following the age rules. To be the best and win a gold medal you shouldn’t do it by cheating, if that’s what is occuring.
To Mike C. if you aren’t an American, which I am gathering based off what you said, saying things like Bring em on, we’ll beat them, is called positive thinking. We have faith in our gymnasts that they can win a gold medal. They beat China last year at World’s and have an even better team going to the Olympics this year. I like watching American gymnasts, while most other countries are graceful, the US women have a lot of power in their tumbling. Which even going back to the 1984 Olympics, it was the same way. Mary Lou Retton was more explosiveness than grace.
I am an American and I am offended by your assumption. At the 1996 Olympic Games, I was the biggest Shannon Miller fan. Shannon Miller could do a cartwheel on the beam and dismount and I would still say she deserved an Olympic gold medal because no one else has sacrificed more than Shannon Miller, surely!?! Your writing shows that you are just as duped as everyone else by the media and the fantastical writing of American journalists. Also, China has a much better team than they did at last year’s Worlds too. Thanks. By the way, the name of the sport is artistic gymnastics, not do a high double-pike-with-ugly-feet-and-bent-legs.
Comments like “Bring em on, we’ll beat them” are not an aspect of American culture but rather an aspect of the nation called Douchebag. Clearly you are a citizen of that nation. And I hope to God, for the sake of humanity, that you NEVER make it in swimming, because you will be the epitome of poor sportsmanship and the poor representation of American culture that so many of our athletes represent. And if you do, well, consider it the realization of my predictions.
All right guys, let’s try and play nice here! 🙂 A friendly warning that if this gets any more personal than it already is, I might delete comments.
I am seconds away from posting my response to all of this. I guess I am trying to distract you guys!
MikeC- I honestly wasn’t trying to offend you, but your comments sounded like you didn’t live in the United States. I have worked hard and I am very sportsman like, so to say that you hope I never make it to the Olympics is an awful thing to say. I have put a lot of work into what I do. The only reason I didn’t go to trials this year was because I was in a car accident 4 months ago and was injured and I couldn’t train. I think rythmic gymnastics is set up to be more graceful than artistic gymnastics is. Yeah there are form breaks here and there, when Nastia debuted her new bar routine she had a few, and I was shocked to see her given a 17 score. But she had the difficulty. You didn’t read what I said though, and that the only point I was actually trying to make was that if He’s truly not 16 that she shouldn’t get to compete at the Olympics. It’s not playing fair. Playing fair shows good sportsmanship. I don’t think that cheating for any reason is playing fair. Which I know most athletes in this country feel the same way. I know a lot of people who have the bring em on, I can beat them attitude. It’s their way of pumping themselves up. At World’s last year Alicia in her speech to the other girls said something along the lines of, “we’re team usa, we beat each other up, we can beat them.” It was her way pumping up the team, and in doing so it helped to be less nervous. She said it may come off as arrogance but they don’t want to look nervous. That’s how I perceive Steve’s comment. Once again sorry to have offended you, I honestly didn’t mean too.
Becky- 1) did you know that China has a population of 1.3 billion people. So your comment of “the people of China” is just a bit presumptuous, wouldn’t you say. 2) Of course my comment about Alicia Sacramone was idiotic…that was the point. The fact that you “explained” that athletes are tested for drugs shows you didn’t get the point….but i’ll move on. 3) Your tone has changed from accusatory to mere supposition which is fine (hence all your “if” statements) 4) Perhaps I was reading more into your comments than intended HOWEVER, when you quote people to bolster your argument using phrases like “those types of gov’t” and how the gov’t is blocking websites etc, that’s a pretty good assumption that you are passing judgment that that doesn’t happen in the US b/c its better here. If the gov’t says she’s 16 and they have “proof”, then those posting otherwise are posting slanderous comments. I see nothing wrong with having that removed. Websites in the US are constantly issued cease and desist orders for posting false info. Bottom line, people in glass houses…5)As an athlete you should be well aware of how false accusations can spiral out of control. Ironic how Amy Van Dyken used to accuse Inga De Braun of steroids and now Amy’s name is linked to BALCO. By all means, have an opinion but your comments may have negative repercussions. 6) Let the teams fight it out in the gym and may the best team win…period!
Amy’s name being linked to BALCO was because she was asked to testify against other athletes. Atleast that was her most recent explanation for the issue after being recently accused of doping by fellow US swimmer Gary Hall Jr. Some of my favorite swimmers are involved in a pilot program started by the USADA where they will be tested randomly above and beyond what other athletes are being tested. Which I think is a good thing. One of the bad things about athletics and I hope this will be changed, is that they currently don’t have an ok listed as to what athletes can take. When inquiring about taking a supplement of any sort, they are told to take it at their own risk. If they came out with a list of things that aren’t banned it would be much easier for athletes, because some don’t take banned substances knowingly. Best example would be Andreea Raducan, which it was the team doctor’s fault not her’s. Pseudophedrine is now a legal substance though. I know there are athletes out there who intentionaly dope or cheat and that’s not fair to the other athletes who don’t. You can’t be considered the best in the world if you cheat. You may have won, but you had to cheat to do it, and in my opinion that makes you a loser. So in doping or falsifying ages, if that’s truly the case, then yes, I consider that to be cheating and that’s not fair. That was the only point I was ever trying to make in the first place.
Why on earth is any report on or request for investigation on age falsification considered “pure bitter American whining”?
In 2002, several Romanian gymnasts came forward to admit that they were required to falsify their ages and passports. Some also came forth with reports of physical abuse. One of them, Alexandra Marinescu, stated that not only was the age falsification cheating and illegal, but she believed it contributed to the severity of her injuries, which included a fractured back. The Romanian press and public demanded reforms in the sport.
I think it would be wrong to assume that non-Americans simply don’t care whether or not reports of age falsification are true. Why is this an American issue? Every country must decide whether or not to leave their top junior athletes (many of whom are simply spectacular) or whether to falsify documents and put them on the team. If one country is suspected of doing it, why is it “whining” to report on it? The NYT may have been the first among the major mainstream press to report on it, but the story is circulating around the world.
gt-its whining because FIG already ruled on it. They said the passport is in order and that’s good enough for them. I’ll give you an analogy that might help you understand. Marion Jones won many medals and was able to clear her drugs tests during the Olympics, correct? Would it have been fair, at the time she won and passed the tests, to have accused her of doping since she was winning by such a large margin over her competitors. I’m sure there were rumbling about it back in Sydney. Same with Florence Griffith Joyner. People speculated but never said anything b/c they had NO PROOF. Can you imagine if other countries had started speculating. The American media would have ripped them to shreds because you can’t just go around hurling accusations unless you’ve got proof. Sure Marion Jones ended up admitting to drug use and those that suspected were right but it goes against everything that Americans believe in…the backbone of the legal system…INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Look, it may come out years later that He Kexin was only 12 or 14 or whatever during these games and all you naysayers can have the satisfaction of saying you are right but if you want to go back to a time like the Salem Witch trials when an accusation was good enough for a burning at the stakes, I’ll be the first to catch a plane to Canada.
Was it whining to look at Jose Canseco and yell “sterooooooids” from the stands (before he had admitted it)? No, it’s called beleiving your lying eyes.
Okay, so there are two issues here.
1) Is He Kexin underage? As to the answer… possibly. I don’t think anyone other than He or the Chinese government can answer that definitively. Things do look fishy when three separate sources (a state-sponsored newspaper, the sports director of the Sichuan province, and Chengdu’s offical website) all reported the same age for her; namely, that she was born in 1994. It’s not just one typo. Before this May, all available sources gave He Kexin’s age as 14 (or 13 last fall, before her most recent birthday). The Chinese government only issued a correction and copies of a recently-issued passport when He became an Olympic hopeful and people started raising eyebrows. The problem is, with that type of government, that’s all you can check. Even if a formal protest is lodged, there is no way to prove anything, and that sucks. But I still think it’s a fair question to ask: why was this girl always reported as having a 1994 birthday until this year?
2) Whether age should be an issue at all. Maybe it shouldn’t, but the rule is in place, and there’s a possibility that the Chinese are breaking it. When other countries abide by a rule and one doesn’t, there’s a problem. I’d imagine that the 2004 women’s team final might have turned out differently if Nastia Liukin had taken Courtney McCool’s place on the American team. That’s a big “if,” seeing as how fantastic the Romanians were, but Nastia’s contributions on bars and balance beam couldn’t have hurt. My point is this: if other countries aren’t using underage athletes that could help the team, neither should China (if He is in fact underage. I think she is, but that’s neither here nor there.) Either abolish the rule or find some good way to enforce it, because otherwise you end up with the media circus we’re all seeing now.
And just an observation here: Americans just can’t win here. When the American media raised a legitimate (in my view) question about He’s age, we’re whiners. When USA Gymnastics’ response is, “We’re not going to protest. Bring ’em on,” it’s a sign of “immaturity and haughtiness.” They’re not protesting because a protest would be useless. *IF* He’s passport is falsified, there is no way to prove it. I think that a, “Let’s go kick butt and win,” attitude is probably the healthiest way to go here.
In response to M:
“they’ve had ‘young’ looking competitors in the past but no one complained then. why…b/c they were never really a direct threat to team usa. now when usa has a great shot at team gold, all the whiners come out and cry foul.”
Well… yeah. You don’t pay much attention to your competitors when they don’t have a chance at beating you. When they do, you start to notice things. Though I still don’t understand how raising a seemingly-legit question about an athlete’s age is whining. But let’s say for the sake of argument that all Americans are a bunch of whining, poor sports with a bad case of sour grapes — that still doesn’t mean that their questions are without merit. If a whiner’s protest is correct, that doesn’t mean you should ignore it just because the whiners annoy you. Frankly, I’m surprised that the British haven’t protested, given Beth Tweddle’s shot at a medal on bars. I suspect that nobody is protesting because, as I mentioned before, there IS no way to prove it when the country in question has such a tightly-controlled government.
To MikeC:
“By the way, the name of the sport is artistic gymnastics, not do a high double-pike-with-ugly-feet-and-bent-legs.”
Sadly, the new scoring system seems to have eliminated artistry from the equation. I can think of maybe three world-class gymnasts whose floor routines contain actual choreography, rather than a pose or two between six tumbling passes. Unfortunately, there is a big difference between what the sport SHOULD be and what is actually is. Though I’m pretty sure that an ugly double pike with bent legs would receive all of the execution deductions that it deserves. 😉
One more thing, in response to M:
“Would it have been fair, at the time she won and passed the tests, to have accused her of doping since she was winning by such a large margin over her competitors. I’m sure there were rumbling about it back in Sydney. Same with Florence Griffith Joyner. People speculated but never said anything b/c they had NO PROOF. …but it goes against everything that Americans believe in…the backbone of the legal system…INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.”
As far as I understand it, the chronology of the situation is thus:
1. An article shows up in an American newspaper, pointing out three different offical Chinese sources giving He Kexin a birthdate in 1994.
2. The Chinese government removes online records and provides copies of a recently-issued passport giving her a different, earlier birthday.
3. “Hey, that’s all we can check unless someone files a formal protest.”
4. USA Gymnastics does not file a formal protest.
Aside from news outlets trying to make a story out of it like they always do, where is this proverbial burning-at-the-stake? The problem is, we have no way of knowing whether or not those passports are legit, so there will ALWAYS be a story. If these were athletes from another country, you can bet reporters would have dug up birth certificates by now, but we can’t do that because the athletes are in China. THAT’s the problem. All we have is speculation. Every headline is, “Chinese Athletes MAY [emphasis mine] Be Underage,” with information about the conflicting reports on their ages. So… where are the accusations with no proof?
To M:
To say “There is no proof” is conclusory. “Proof” is evidence that has been verified after an investigation and/or trial. You are saying, “Because there was no investigation, therefore there is no proof.” This is logically fallacious. What I am saying is, “There is evidence, therefore is should be investigated. Once investigated, the evidence is either conclusive or inconclusive. Until there is no investigation, the evidence is potentially valid.” You are right that a decision was made not to investigate, but that decision could very well have been either politically-based or made in the interests of convenience, and that decision which was made without investigation, does not invalidate the evidence.
Your definition of “whining” extends to anyone who discusses or raises evidence pre-investigation or pre-trial. My knowledge of the Jones case is very superficial, but it’s my understanding that someone investigated the nature of the substance she had taken and this investigation led to her confession. Under your definition these investigators would have been “whiners” for attempting to locate evidence outside of an official government investigation.
Prior to Marion Jones’ wins, reporters from other countries would have been free to investigate the substance she was taking and to have published evidence. It would have been difficult to get biological samples, but these reporters would have been free to utilize any legal method to obtain this evidence (with substantial legal methods being available to them) and to publish this evidence anywhere. In fact I wish more foreign reporters would come to the US to do their own research and investigations, and save the US taxpayers some money paying for the government to investigate.
Ironically, Marion Jones would be better off now if foreign media had investigated prior to the Olympics. My understanding (again I don’t know the case that well) is that she was sentenced to prison for lying in the course of a government investigation. If the foreign media had investigated her long ago, she would have been deterred from lying during the official investigation, and would not have gone to prison.
Erin,
I definitely agree with what you say, but just to throw in a little note: people think of Nastia as a bars and beam specialist now, but when she was a junior she was a cutting-edge world class contender on floor, training a quad and (I think) a 3.5 forwards. I also remember her having a 2.0 yurchenko on vault. As for floor choreography, it’s too bad the world won’t see the stunning Holly Dykes because she peaked as a junior.
Ugh, excuse my typos in the long post above. I’m unable to edit or I would go back and fix them.
Wow…Erin and gt, you all make great posts. Could you please come and join WWGym message board? It’s quite lively, but you would add a lot with your content-filled postings.
GT- no the proof IS the passport so there’s no need to investigate. FIG clearly states that that is enough and it is verified. Clearly this is not enough for you and many others but ultimately the ruling HAS been made and you can scream until you are blue in the face and that will still not change things. Your opinon about whether it is sufficient as evidence is irrelevant. Just like in the American legal system, not all charges are investigated. There must be a compelling reason for a grand jury hearing. Clearly your “allegations” are not enough. So at this point, to me, it is nothing more than whining.
Erin – so your point is not really about “fair play” its more about winning. Since you said you really don’t care about competitors that are not a threat who “lie” about their age. Its only the ones who pose a threat. Somewhat hypocritical but at least you admit it. Regarding the headlines as “may be underage” as opposed to “she is underage”…absolutely. Newspapers are dumb…they don’t want to be sued for slander. It is all speculation. However, it is these headlines that people read and don’t quite understand the difference b/t speculation and fact. Funny you point this out, since the title of this thread is “another article with PROOF He Kexin is underage. Lastly, the reason countries like Great Britian aren’t lodging protests is exactly what you said, there is no way to prove it. Which, ironically, brings me back to my original comment, THERE’S NO PROOF.
Another Chinese gymnasts age has come into question. What a shocker!! Half their team is potentially underage to compete. When athletes are listed on different data bases, online or not, as a certain birthdate for a few years and then suddenly that date changes in the year of an Olympics it does raise a lot of questions. It’s not fair to countries who are abiding by the rules. If these girls are indeed underage it’s not fair to any country following the rules. One country, I think N. Korea, got in trouble for listing a gymnast as 15 three years in a row. Romania, as a few other people have mentioned have also done this in the past. Someone else had mentioned how Bela Karolyi had said in a totalitarian goverment it is easier to falsify documents. Since he is from Romania, and lived there when it still was a totalitarian government, he may dealt with it first hand. Therefore I think a good person to quote at what could potentally be going on in China. In China there are no birthcertificates, only national cards. The national card has the persons birthday embedded in it. On the back it has an issue date. FIG should’ve required to see the national cards issue date as well. If it had been issued around of the time of the passport, it could prove that they are falsifying ages. I think if it comes out later on that He and the two other girls are underage, any medals that the Chinese women’s gymnastics team wins this Olympics should be stripped. Lying about ages is cheating. It’s not following rules set down by FIG. Steve Penny said that they wouldn’t file a complaint, that it was a FIG and IOC issue, and the IOC said it’s a FIG issue. Only China has the proof to whether this is true or not. I don’t think a passport should be the only means of determining someones age.
Thank you Erin for somewhat reinforcing what I had been trying to say. I am glad I am not the only person who had the same thoughts. People may have misunderstood my comments. But you vocalized, in a manner of speaking, what I had been trying to say all along.
M, let me get this straight: once an entity, organization or authority closes a matter brought to its attention for the first time, regardless of the reasons the matter was closed, whether for just cause, inertia, laziness, political pressure, bribery, etc., you believe that should be the absolute end of the matter. Not only should all appeals be forbidden, not only should any further evidence not be researched and submitted, but every person on the planet should cease to discuss the matter further. I’m afraid that would render not just a democracy entirely unable to function, but I doubt that even dictatorships would be able to function on a large scale under such a system.
Becky, don’t be apologetic for what you said. You were accused of making sweeping comments about China after American culture was equated with “whining.” Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
M:
Also, a note on the US grand jury analogy: I assume that you meant to analogize the FIG/IOC to say, the USDOJ. So someone calls in with a complaint that Evil Company is price-fixing. For whatever reason and there are many possible ones, the DOJ doesn’t care. Would this bar every other person or entity from calling into the DOJ? Would this bar the press from ever reporting on the story? Absolutely not.
In fact, the idea of the DOJ taking action immediately to every complaint is ludicrous, even if all the complaints turned out to be true. The DOJ can change its mind at anytime and begin an investigation. It could be because they hired more attorneys and are no longer understaffed. It could be that an attorney got back from vacation. It could be that Evil Company has gotten the attention of a consumer group with lobbyists on the Hill. And a hundred other possibilities.
The DOJ’s initial decision not to act on the first complaint is as far from res judicata as one could possibly get. It is someone putting out place settings before the party has even started.
Other problems with the analogy include the very limited grand jury use for certain crimes, the remedies of imprisonment and even the death penalty requiring a much higher burden of proof that the DOJ would need to meet. Also, the practical use of the grand jury process is to grant widespread discovery powers. Those powers, which would enable the prosecutor to conduct large-scale discovery and subpoena of witnesses within the jurisdiction’s borders, testimony to be given under oath under penalty of law and imprisonment, does not exist in this case. I have a list of other reasons why the grand jury analogy is inappropriate but they should be fairly obvious.
GT – again you missed my point. I’m not saying you can’t complain about the ruling. In fact, I said “you can scream until you are blue in the face.” No where in any of my posts did I say, you should post, you shouldn’t have an opinion, you shouldn’t say…. What I am saying is that your comments are nothing more than whining since the ruling has been made. Since you are so passionate about this supposed scandal, I encourage you to investigate this and make your findings open to the public. Perhaps you might even go to China to dig up some dirt. Now, I’d be VERY careful about going there however. You should go on a tourist visa so they won’t suspect. You know how that Chinese Gov’t is…But I’m sure you know all about this already since you’ve been to China before. I hope so anyway…I hope you aren’t getting all your info from Fox News? Once you’ve made your discovery, whine, b**ch and complain all you want. Now I hope you got that straight.
GT- regarding your other post, apologies for not reading it. You’ve become a bit tiresome but continue to post…others may find your reasoning, although somewhat skewed, entertaining.
what gives if those girls are underage ??
sooner or later the truth comes out. [I do believe that they are underage but the chinese have a pretty messed up government]
I think it’s wrong to categorize the Chinese government as a problematic one because what government is perfect? Do you think that the U.S. gives us complete freedom of the press? Yes, the internet is uncensored; and yes, we Americans have much more freedom to say and write how we feel than other countries, but the U.S. government, as well as other governments alter journalistic content to their liking. In the U.S., the sensationalization of news is for the sole purpose of profit. And certain images that may be deemed viewable in certain publications in other countries would be considered too gruesome for our eyes.
In the end, unless someone can produce factual evidence that the Chinese gymnasts are in fact underage, then that’s when people should start speculating. The Karolyis need to stop whining about the Chinese gymnasts being underage. The only reason why they are complaining is because they want to use underage gymnasts themselves, but they can’t.
How would using underaged gymnasts constitute as cheating? If these Chinese gymnasts were in fact underaged, wouldn’t it be a bigger slap in the U.S. team’s faces for losing to a group of pre-teens? Not to mention, regardless of whether or not the Chinese gymnasts are underaged, which I strongly believe to be false, the Chinese team has less international experience than the U.S. team yet the Chinese won the gold. Basically, the Chinese team performed better than the U.S. team when it mattered.
i dont think that becky erin or gt are flat out saying without evidence that the chinese cheated. there just saying that it is a little skeptical that there are 3 documents saying that He is underage and *IF* thats true then its cheating and cheating isnt fair, as we all know, no matter what country your from. it seems 2 me that some ppl dislike the us and our ppl so much that they are completely ignorant 2 innocent stuff that ppl like becky say and accuse them of something else like whining. becky u shouldnt apologize cuz really u said nothing wrong. u tried 2 keep it 2 a certain level and others took it the wrong way due 2 their ignorance and called u names. good luck in makin it in swimming i kno you would be great in representing the us. as 4 mike complaining about us saying unethical stuff like bring em on we will beat em it seems 2 me that u dont know what u truly believe in especially after saying innapropriate stuff like “And I hope to God, for the sake of humanity, that you NEVER make it in swimming, because you will be the epitome of poor sportsmanship and the poor representation of American culture that so many of our athletes represent.” nobody here came out completely calling the chinese cheaters all we said was that its a *possibility* but theres no proof due 2 the lack of evidence because they have no birth certificates. were not whining at all and even if they are found underage, even though it wasnt right 2 lie about their age, its still kinda sad that we lost 2 a bunch of 14 yr olds =P but
I just want to know why some of them have a couple teeth missing? Also how one girls birthday in Jan 1, 1992 the exact date she needs to be to qualify along with all the other speculation and documents saying she is 14. I understand they are good and better than the USA but I do believe that is cheating. If they would have been of age and won the gold I would congratulate them. Anyway its just gymnastics. We kick their ass in Swimming, Basketball, Volleyball, Track, etc..
lol yea man especially basketball.. our dream team wit kobe =) and swimming. michael phelps is amazing
WOOOOOT WOOT NASTIA IS AMAZING AND SO IS SHAWN
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the fact is the chinese government endorsed cheating to win gold medals. they are under aged and it doesnt come as a surprise to anyone. accept it and move on
Why is it called whining when it is TRUTH to point out that the girl is underage and the Chinese are hiding it. Stop putting down the ones who are trying to bring an injustice to light. It makes a difference when you are competing in this sport as to what age you are.
I agree with Caroline. These idiots who say we’re bad sports are wrong.
Age limits are there for a reason.
We don’t need 12 year olds competing WORLD WIDE!
Geez.
cmon if she’s good then just let her keep the dam medal, who care about age, and i have to admit china is better in gymnast. end of story.
Apparently new info has come out and the IOC has ordered FIG to officially investigate the ages of the Chinese gymnasts. If they are found to be underage I wonder what will happen to their medals.
Also, thanks for your encouragement Gio!
your welcome becky =)
and wop p your right she is good but cheating is cheating. they place rules down for people to follow and not to break them. and if shes found guilty then that will only show that shes a great gymnast that had to cheat because china couldnt wait another 4 years to introduce her 2 the world. and if shes found innocent then congratulations on winning the gold im sure she deserved it.
lol becky u kno exactly what would happen 2 their medals. and what happened was some hacker found some really good evidence on he kexins age and i guess that was ebough 4 the IOC 2 issue an investigation.
I guess it really was not hacking from what I read he used caches that Baidu saves. Apparently Baidu does not easily get caches deleted as Google. In addition age does matter, none of the other gymnasts were under age 16 and it is not fair to the other athletes. Plus when it is “doping”, medals are automatically stripped because the IOC really does a real investigation. The decision for now is the FIG will believe the Chinese as they did before without any real investigation. The only problem is what will happen with other nations. My take is that other nations will think less of the IOC and ruling bodies.
i heard that if the chinese gymnasts are found underage then chances are they wont even have their medals stripped cuz theres not that many days left of the games… did anybody see that thing where they compared shannon johnson to this little mouse on tv. i thought that was really messed up.
OMG people does it seriously matter?!!?! yang yilin is underage, too! big deal! they said that fifteen year olds can enter the competition as long as they are turning 16 in that certain year. sheesh.
and also i agree with wopp
Wow after a whole whopping 12 hours, FIG and the IOC say that the Chinese gymnasts are innocent. If you’re going to start an investigation, atleast investigate!! Whatever, it’s done and over with. China performed better that night. Like Shawn said, give the US a different night and they could’ve come out on top. Still IF those girls are underage, it’s wrong of China to not follow the rules when all the other countries did.
Simple solution, hook all of these girls up to a lie detector and ask “Are you 16 years old?”, if yes then congratulate them on their victory, if no then strip them of their medals and ban China from the London games. Give them 8 years to think about what they’ve done. Might seem harsh, but those girls weren’t able to provide themselves with false passports, their government did that. And it doesn’t matter if younger girls are more flexible, lighter, bouncier, whatever…..they’re not eligible, end of story.
a person- the reason why its a big deal is cuz its a RULE. everybody else follows them why shouldnt china? just like how u follow rules at work or school its not fair to others if some1 else breaks them and u follow them. And dont even say that its a stupid rule because the reason the under 16 rule was put there was so they dont have growth problems or any other physical problems when they’re older. and even tho they were foun innocent becky you never kno one of the chinese gymnast might confess *IF* she was actually underage.